Greek Pedagogical pederasty

                                                                         and the Female (passive) roled male


The Reason for creating this page revolves around the fact that I for some reason was "Pre-disposed" toward the homosexually 

passive role,(age 13) in that once my friend, showed me attention,began to seduce me, though was hesitant shortly, I wanted him,

and very much wanted to be his "passive partner". Yet , prior to his seduction of me, I had clearly been lusting to perform Fellatio on

my young handsome gym teacher since first seeing him nude in showers, his big cock with hair, compared to my hairless cock, I already been sucking my own cock and ejaculating in my mouth ,swallowing the semen..I remember so much desiring to have the gym teacher ejaculate in my mouth.

  Thus once my friend offered to let me start performing Fellatio on himself, I was quite eager, once I began to , it seemed 100% my
role.I wanted to as much as he wanted me to, and much more. Introducing his older friend to me was wonderful,his penis was big had hair around it similar to the gym teacher and once he started allowing me to Fellate him, I very much loved the amount of semen
he would ejaculate in my mouth.

However the "Point of No Return" as far as being a Fem-male and Female roled male ,  a HomoSexual transgender person was clear
once my friends started taking me anally, and ejaculating up inside me , and calling me their "Girly-boyfriend", I loved the "Girl" aspect of that term, wished the "boy part" was absent.

And at age 8 years old I was commonly sneaking and wearing my mom's or grandmother's thigh-highs and panty hose under my jeans ?, wanting to perform fellatio on my same age friend, and doing so ? 

I never stopped wanting to be a "Girly-boyfriend", only suppressed it, due to the Social Structure in grew up in,which clearly caused great psychological hardship. 

               And for myself I clearly would of became a "  eromenos " passive fem-boy for my gym teacher(Man) or another Man.
               If living in the Greek times under the below  " Greek pederasty code " 
                           And remained a  eromenos, and likely, as now want to be a feminine as possible

Yet a Question I have pondered for years is, and arises from the following passage;


   "An elaborate social code governed the mechanics of Greek pederasty. It was the duty of the adult man to court the boy who struck his fancy, and it was viewed as socially appropriate for the younger man to withhold for a while before capitulating to his mentor's desires. This waiting period allowed the boy to ensure that his suitor was not merely interested in him for sexual purposes, but felt a genuine emotional affection for him and was interested in assuming the mentor role assigned to him in the pederastic paradigm. 

The age limit for pederasty in ancient Greece seems to encompass, at the minimum end, boys of twelve years of age. To love a boy below the age of twelve was considered inappropriate, but no evidence exists of any legal penalties attached to this sort of practice. Traditionally, a pederastic relationship could continue until the widespread growth of the boy's body hair, when he is considered a man. Thus, the age limit for the younger member of a pederastic relationship seems to have extended from 12 to about 17 years of age.  

                                      Thus Once a Man , you take the  "Penetrative role "

it still was not entirely regarded as a homosexual union, given that one partner would have to take on a passive role, and would therefore no longer be considered a ‘man’ in terms of the sexual union.[8

                                                                                                                      - wikipedia

                                                My problem is ; I have never wanted in the Man Role,

                                                   simple was informed this is How it Works!  (by Society)

                                       Take the Man role, whether it is right or not, and good luck!

                                                    -Just supress it, and be happy to be Alive! -

                                         ( which I've been told to do, especially by christian people )

                              Now I say to them " Just suppress your judgements and be happy your Alive! "

                                                              and remind them there is a very,very good reason for separation

                                                              of church and state.

The Question has been for myself,

 " I was only in the passive role,only ever have desired to be in the passive role"

       It would be as though Morally wrong , completely against my nature to even consider being in

       the male role as " Penetrative partner", even the few times I have , against my will, allowed a few men to                  perform fellatio on me, clearly after the act, I was upset, it wasn't right for me, as though both morally and

       spiritually wrong for myself, not my Role.

  Even sex with females, I felt this way, yet was at least tolerable, at least I convinced myself that it was, due to fact   that Society said it should be.

                    Thus how could a young male be the passive partner, say from 12 to 17 years of age, and not be

                    completely " Femininized ", ? or where there some whom remained like myself;

                           "the remaining  lives desiring only to be " a female roled male "

         Desiring to be as Feminine as possible for men, so as they will like having you as a "girly-boy" ?

                                 Thus where this the true HomoSexual transgender ones ?

                            The others heterosexuals, simply seeing it as a Social construct, doing their time, getting

                             educated ?



excerpts from above site;

There are, indeed, a great many pictures on vases that show how an older lover, the erastes, courts a boy, the eromenos. They appear not to be of the same age: the erastes has a beard and plays an active role, whereas the adolescent has no beard and remains passive. He will never take an initiative, looks shy, and is never shown as excited. It is assumed by many modern scholars that as soon as the adolescent had a beard, the love affair had to be finished. He had to find an eromenos of his own.

This is not just Plato's portrayal of his admired teacher. That Socrates was well-known for this attitude is more or less confirmed by another student, the mercenary leader and author Xenophon (c.430-c.354). He informs us that his master, when challenged by the presence of a good looking adolescent, remained capable of self-control


 Excerpts from; pdf

Higher Love: 
Elitism in the Pederastic Practice of Athens 
in the Archaic and Classical Periods 
Caitlin Deega

It seems that as the economy grew in ancient Athens, so,
too, did pederasty’s link to elitism. Early images of black figure
vases feature pederastic scenes that implicate ritual much more
heavily than later red figure scenes which focus on courtship, the

buying of expensive gifts to woo young men, and the placement 
of pederastic couples in elitist surroundings, such as gymnasia.15

Additionally, during the archaic period when wealthy families
were synonymous with politics, pederasty and its accompanying
imagery may have been used to ensure the continued hegemony of
the families. One key function of pederasty, such as it was
practiced in ancient Athens, was the introduction of the eromenos
to members of society that could advance him politically or
economically.16 Boys from the lower economic class, such as
farmers’ sons, would most likely not have engaged in pederastic
Often, a lower class boy’s status inherently
prohibited him from becoming an eromenos; it is unlikely his
father would be able to forgo his son’s labor to allow the boy to
spend his hours with an older man at a symposium or in the
gymnasium.17 Similarly, it is unlikely that an erastes would choose
a lower class boy or that a lower class man would become an
erastes. The erastes was required to court a youth, and often the
lavishness of his gifts reflected well on both himself and his young
conquest. A poor farmer would have little chance of wooing a boy, 

as the likelihood that he would have superfluous funds for courting

would be quite slim. 
Additionally, no upper class erastes would
spend his time courting a poor boy, as this courtship would not
increase his social standing. Thus, the ideological motivations
behind pederasty, when examined through the lens of Marxist
theory, are seen to be primarily political and economic; pederasty
was not simply a pedagogical practice meant to initiate young men
into manhood; rather, it was motivated by class and intended to
secure the hegemony of that class through its inherent exclusivity. 

Being a materialist theory, Marxism holds that artistic
production is a part of a society’s superstructure; the superstructure
is said to naturalize class differences, and in relation to pederasty,
vase painting and Greek comedy were used to naturalize pederasty
as a pursuit of the elite, further strengthening the idea that the
practice was inaccessible to lower classes. In the case of comedy,
this idea of inaccessibility was achieved through the presentation
of pederasty as a ridiculous and unenviable form of elitism, though
distinctly elitist all the same. In vase painting, inaccessibility was
achieved by the reinforcement of pederasty as elitist through
symbols, such as comically lavish courting gifts, like leopards.
Both artistic media present the class difference as concrete and
unable to be changed – the chance of a farmer or painter being able
to afford a leopard to present as a courting gift is impossible, and 
pederasty’s consistently negative presentation in comedies would
discourage any lower class citizen from envying it as an institution,
effectively preventing any citizen from wishing to incite more
universality in the practice.

The Eromenos

Characteristics of the role

Erastes and Eromenos Flanked by a Dead Hare and a Dead Fox. Attic black-figure cup by the Sokles Painter, c. 550–530 B.C. Swiss private collection.

The youth was expected to put up resistance to the entreaties of the various erastai seeking to win his affection, in order to test their seriousness of purpose, and to choose the most deserving. As a result, in Attica, eromenoi were assiduously courted, and were at times the object of street fights and arguments among the young men vying for their affection.[2] Some of the eromenoi moved in with their lovers, with whom they lived for some period of time, usually until coming of age. Most erastai-eromenoi relationships were expected to break apart when the young partner entered adulthood (signaled by the growth of a beard), although a minority of couples stayed together as full-time lovers.

The Greeks recognized and valued that time in the life of a boy when he was considered to be ripe for loving; the Greek word used to describe such a boy was hôraios, meaning "in season" or "in bloom".[3] Eromenoi were generally males aged twelve to seventeen.[4] Though the eromenos was valued for his beauty, he was appreciated even more for his modesty, industriousness and courage. In Plato's Symposium (191e–192a), the character Aristophanes says that the eromenoi who "love men and enjoy lying with men and being embraced by men" are not shameless, but rather "the best of boys and lads, because they are the most manly in their nature" (though this may have been a view held by aristocratic Athenians of Plato and Aristophanes' type, the nature of Platonic dialogues makes it uncertain whether it was actually held by either Plato or Aristophanes themselves).

The eromenos was typically portrayed as undergoing pedagogical training, and while he typically was also the object of affection and passion, he was not necessarily sexually engaged. When present, sexual expression is depicted in the iconography as having consisted primarily of fondling and intercrural sex. Anal sex appears to have been less common, yet frequent enough to be a topic of comedy, and of criticism based on the opinion that it was a was a shameful practice[5] and risked feminizing the boys who grew to like it.

excerpt from ;

      Pederasty: An Integration of Empirical, Historical, Sociological, Cross-Cultural, Cross-Species, and Evolutionary Evidence and             Perspectives  pdf
                               by Bruce Rind

Finally, it is important to emphasize that, in light of cross-cultural research on male homosexuality in societies tolerating or encouraging this behavior, and in view of the radically changed environment of widespread tolerance in our society today regarding this behavior, in which homosexual persons are often normal in adjustment or untroubled by their sexuality, it becomes clear that homosexual patients’ difficulties with their sexuality in the past were not the primary effects of their homosexuality but interaction effects with a culture that severely stigmatized and disadvantaged them. For currently disapproved sexualities, it is important to take into account and distinguish between primary and interaction negative effects.

my thought is Plato felt that same sex relationships could be wonderful,yet only in proper context

                  I can see where , a culture that accepts, and has a established institution of the Third-gender, berdache,muxe etc. .

                  Once I had reached puberty, clearly showed that my desire was to be a male's "girly-boyfriend" take the female /passive 

                  role , There would be a group of older males and females schooled in training me in roles best suited for me in society.

                           This is how a advance Civilization moves ahead, not by doing what was done not so long ago on the issue of ;

                                                                      Same-Sex Marriage here in the United States.

                                                        Even the Supreme Court Justices whom voted to make it legal,

                                                       made it clear, this issue should of Not come before their Court!


                                       " Justices Stephen G. Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas haven’t written separate opinions on gay marriage in cases decided by the Supreme Court, and have kept tight-lipped on the issue in recent years — though the left-leaning Breyer and Sotomayor sided against DOMA in 2013, and Thomas has joined his fellow conservatives in voting that the court shouldn’t rule on gay marriage."

                             " In the case Hollingsworth v. Perry, Chief Justice Roberts wrote that judicial precedents that courts only answer questions that are “viewed as capable of resolution through the judicial process” are “an essential limit on our power: It ensures that we act as judges, and do not engage in policymaking properly left to elected representatives.” It’s a similar argument to the one Alito and Scalia make in Windsor.


Justice Antonin Scalia

“This case is about power in several respects,” Scalia wrote in his dissenting opinion on the Windsor case, arguing the courts should not decide laws on gay marriage. “It is about the power of our people to govern themselves, and the power of this Court to pronounce the law. Today’s opinion aggrandizes the latter, with the predictable consequence of diminishing the former. We have no power to decide this case.”            - time.com


A Great Society doesn't just happen, it's the responsiblity of each Individual to work toward it, is that enough of a reason to be alive?

                                           There is no reason there can not be Schools just for Transgender youth

                            As they do have at this time, due to non-acceptance, in part greatly empowered hate by religion

I think in the United States, if Society as a Whole can't mature, or is held by religious ideology, then even a Set State for transgender people can go,live and be free from those whom show hate for them.One reason we have States, or a Good reason for States.

     Be nice to have a Religion free state, which U S was suppose to be ! or at least Religion was not suppose to impose it's 

     ideology on others.


Like Plato stated Only those,  of say now you could call;" Those of High Self Actualization, Being-Cognition,Developmental potential" should be leaders, Maybe at one time any Tom,Dick or Harry could run for a High Office, unless we realize that don't work no more!

  Establish University just for " Leadership Roles " and leader must be trained to Lead, this society is going to Fail, in part by simply       poor leadership ability. - my opinion


Even the in "Indigo club " concept, I tried to frame a scenario where a " female roled male " like myself could be in the sexual role they desire, safely with selected (Str8) straight heterosexual married men, that are educated, being cognitive,and have consenting female wives/partners. It may or may not work, the point is only it is a effort for a idea,I could of been educated in ways of being a "female roled male" , sexual ethics,safe anal sexual methods,fellatio etc. as that is the reality of what my role will be most likely for life. by age 18 I could of belonged to a Indigo institute, where the Men could give me sexual attention, get to know the wives, and hopefully maybe the couple could take me , say as a ;

Fem-male / eunuch / Au pair  type person
I know I longed for to be like a; Fem-male / eunuch / Au pair  type person for several married males I normally would sexually pleasure.
  First get to know her, see if it was possible for her to accept me as a "Fem-male", like in "Terrace", and reason I wrote Terrace as        after so much sex, and still alone, instead got a dog "George" and became celibate.
  it is humanly possible,if  her and I could form a platonic bond.
  I know for sure if I could of been a  Berdache / eunuch / Au pair person partnered with a married male/female couple I would of           likely had the vulvoplasty surgery, thus become physically emasculated
  And I personally like helping teach children, especially in ways of Nature,Art.
  And clearly the basic family unit is in need of help,to move into the future.

     Then by 18 years old the " Fem-male " could undergo the vaginoplasty or vulvoplasty surgery to be physically emasculated.

        Hopefully the "Fem-male " could be selected / partnered with a couple, and thus leave group to go live with them, or a alternative         would be the "Fem-male" meets a man outside the group, thus prior to having sex with this man, the Fem-male must leave the           group,  if any of the relationships fail for the Fem-male, he can return to group after being screened for health.

          As can the Str8 men.

My opinion is from my own experience no one should be Allowed to have any type of ;

         " gender confirmation surgery or hormone therapy before age 18, even that is marginal, as far as psychological development"

My self, I wouldn't of done hormone thing, as my need for " Looking very Female like " was never there, my big desire has always been the vaginoplasty or vulvoplasty surgery, which I know now I wish to have the vulvoplasty surgery, yet at 18, in 1979, I don't know

 as by having sexual relationships with females, I learned by Contrast, that I was much in need to be in Fem-male role;

                                                                                      which by far I preferred

I've always wanted to be only female like appearing in a high degree this regard

                " I clearly knew by about 22 years old, a mistake was made, and I needed to be in the Female role for a Str8 male"

                                                              As I simply Longed for being in the Fem-male role constantly

                                                               and to not have a penis, yet a a female like vulva / vagina

I can clearly see the Greeks were trying to teach these youths ( eromenoi ) wisdom,ethics 

  And I myself can see that if I could of been selected by a older male to teach me how to sexually be a good Fem-male   for life, even introduced me to sexual relations with a female, so I could of seen the contrast of being in the female role

  verse being in the male role. I know I would of selected female role, yet at least I would of tried the male role, at same    time hopefully forming a platonic friendship with a female.

   For myself " the female role is 100% right and non-changing, I tried.!