This below image portrays what I see as " The New Gay man "
You would never see me in this type interaction with a Man,↑ as for him to make-out with me, shows he is not heterosexual.
The whole new gay man thing is confusing to me , as seeing two masculine men making-out, is not similar to my role,
out of character , I need to be defined clearly as female roled, my man clearly male roled.
The following are excerpts from ↑;
A problem that became obvious in the 1970s
In parallel with this new style came a change in the definition of male homosexuality: from now on, men who penetrated receptive males would also be considered homosexual.
These men had inhabited a somewhat vague Twilight Zone. As we have seen, myriad cultures either ignored, condoned or actively promoted the penetration of boys by men. Even in the West, such proclivities were generally swept under the carpet; a notable exception was Oscar Wilde’s conviction for sodomising boys in 1895.(6)
Now, however, ‘transgender homosexuality’ was to be replaced by ‘egalitarian homosexuality’. In this, the partners switch sexual roles and were both expected to appear to be masculine, since for at least part of the time they would penetrate.
This caused a problem. If gay men are invisible — appearing to be like other men — how do they find sexual partners?
Transgender to Egalitarian
The heterosexual men involved in ‘transgender homosexualism’ were not attracted to masculine males at all; often they were happily married. Indeed, Fouratt described the Stonewall Inn in New York, seat of the eponymous protests, as a haunt of ‘white boys and their married johns.’
These married men — who paid to penetrate rent-boys — did not consider themselves homosexual; this was because they were simply carrying on a tradition that has existed since long before Rome, largely without social repercussions. They persist today and as a result of concerns about the spread of HIV, have even been recognised with a new label — men who have sex with men, or ‘MSM’.(7)
It was their sexual partners’ effeminacy that attracted these men: with this gone, so were they. They were not interested in sex, and certainly not in relationships, with other men at all; they regarded boys — or very boyish young men — as a sexual delicacy. Perhaps more to the point, they were aficionados of anal sex.
Such men refused to join the ‘gay’ movement, because they were not attracted to masculinity and it is this — rather than the act of penetration — that the New Gay Man has defined himself in terms of.
In order to fly under the radar, the ‘married johns’ did one of the following: they went underground and carried on in secret; they gave up boys and went only with women, possibly seeking to penetrate them anally; or they sought out receptive transsexuals. These last, however, were and remain extremely rare in the West. Hello, Pattaya.Clone Gay: the first New Gay Man
Their former lovers — and sources of income — having made other arrangements, homosexual men had to become each other’s lovers. For the New Gay Man lifestyle to work at all, both parties had to appear masculine and be prepared to penetrate. Thus was born the 70s ‘Clone Gay’ with his moustache, white tee-shirt and skinny jeans, the first widely-recognised incarnation of the New Gay Man.
The rigorous policing of gender behaviour that goes on within the New Gay
Man community, in order to reinforce this veneer of masculinity, leads to wider intolerance, most notably of transsexuals. This is why New Gay Man apologists today are so quick to erase the historical roles of transsexuals, ‘trannies,’ ‘queens’ and other feminine expressions of male homosexuality. After all, they are doing exactly what almost every New Gay Man would like to do but is forbidden to.
The New Gay Man lifestyle is not the sweet, gentle thing you have been told it is. Instead it is based on organised, clandestine pederasty and the ruthless exploitation of boys. Within it, young boys, the modern erominos, are seduced by older pederasts. When they become older themselves, and so unattractive, they become the erastes to a new generation of erominos in turn. In contrast to the Greek system, however, these individuals are not training boys to be men, but only to be pederasts like themselves.
Young feminine homosexual boys want real heterosexual men, but there is ZERO chance of them getting one, as ‘gay boys’. Absolutely none. So they are thrown to the pederasts of the New Gay Man lifestyle, which has managed to persuade legislators of its innocence.
( as for myself, I could never become a erastes→be in male role )
( I was clearly fully femininized / emasculated into female role at age 13)
There is an escape route, though;Straight men and HSTS,
Feminine homosexual males sit on a scale of development, or an aetiology, with Male-to-Feminine (MtF) Homosexual Transsexuals (HSTS), or transwomen.
Contrary to what you might think, there are many straight men who would willingly have a relationship with such transwoman, as long as she( I -me) satisfied his expectations of femininity. This is not homophobia; it’s just a reflection of the fact that heterosexual men avoid physical relationships with other men. They are attracted to femininity and repulsed by masculinity. Even the attenuated masculinity of a feminine homosexual boy is enough to trigger their revulsion response.
That such men exist, and in increasing numbers, is clear from observing situations where HSTS transwomen congregate and by discussing this with them. And this has a cumulative effect: the more men are prepared to be the partners of MtF transsexuals, the more young HSTS are encouraged to transition.
( This is why it is so very important that a Str8/heterosexual man, know I am fully psychosexually female like,100% female roled )
And that I dress for the Men in feminine way, so they know I am fully femininized,
once I have sex with them, see how I perform as female roled, then how I dress is less important.
Most Men that I have had sex with will say to me once the encounter is over, something to the effect of;
" Michael ,you should of been born a girl "
Today that means, for such a boy, attracted to straight men, the largest potential dating pool can be accessed by transitioning into a convincing woman and not by remaining a gay boy. And now, he knows it. (myself)
(For myself, I found though, by being open to having my men introduce me to a heterosexual male friend or friends "sharing me" as their , to put bluntly , a " female roled fuck/suck-boy " , because their friend was getting their cock routinely sucked by me, they might try having me do the same to them. If they did, accepted it as non-threatening to their heterosexual, then they to would take me as their " female roled fuck/suck-boy ", and because they knew each other , it was not difficult to on occasion , we all get together, and I'd suck them all, and they'd fuck me, in a ritual ,group membership like comfirmation, It Affirmed they were not "homosexual" and I was getting my Affirmation of being, sexual valued as a " Female-roled male.
For that is the central lie being promoted today, by feminists, New Gay Men and their ‘gender-critical’ allies. You can see it clearly when psychologist James Cantor says that most Gender Non-Conforming (GNC) children ‘will grow up to be ordinary gay or lesbian folks’. ‘Folks’. Not ‘people’. How down-homey, how familiar — and yet how patronising and erasing of transsexual youth. And ‘ordinary’ — as if being buggered senseless by older males before taking your place amongst the buggers and sodomising, in your turn, your quota of younger males could ever be ‘ordinary’!
This is a depraved culture based on the satisfaction of physical lust for younger males. There is no love, nor respect, nor even decency to be found here; the innocent feminine boys inducted into this cult will be passed round a coterie of men who will happily pedicate him…a different one every month, every week, every day and even more. Until, eventually, he has become too old for the predators and must join their ranks himself.
And to the end of perpetuating this monstrous carousel, transsexual boys (the same happens amongst women, but much less callously) and their parents are fed the same old same old lies, dressed up in new clothes — ‘We don’t mind you being a homo these days, you know, but you mustn’t be feminine — and never, ever be transsexual’. That is what ‘ordinary gay folks’ actually means — to be fed into the relentless meatgrinder of the New Gay Man cult.- rodfleming.com
There is a choice, for young feminine homosexual males. As they pass through puberty and begin to consider the life beyond it, they must decide whether to follow transgender homosexual aetiology to its natural conclusion and transition into women, or to submit to the relentless browbeating and sign their lives away to the ‘New Gay Man’ meat market.
(me- for myself transition mean't, not surgery / hormones, but allowing myself to be fully femininized
by my men, clearly performing for them sexually Lady-like, telling them I wanted to be like a lady
sexually, then proving to them I could be in the Female-role sexually for them.As much as I'd like the GRS surgery to have a female appearing vulva, it's not a option, and I wouldn't recommend any
type surgery or hormones to anyone at this time.)
In other words, they must choose whether it is preferable, being strongly same-sex oriented and cross-sex identified, having exhibited childhood GNC, which developed into Gender Dysphoria and in adolescence persisted and deepened, to integrate into society as women and try to find a nice man to love, or to became a part of a culture notorious for risky sexual behaviours, HIV, promiscuity, emotional abuse and relentless persecution of feminine homosexual males for being feminine — as if they could be anything else.- rodfleming.com
Are most gay men bottoms, versatile or top (based on stats)?
two responses from Quora;
1. "Simply look at all the gay Dating/Hookup sites and search for Top, Bottom, and Versatile. I have concluded that around 60% say they are versatile, about 25% are bottom and around 15% are top. The problem here is that most gay men who say they are versatile are only doing so because they don't want to admit that they are complete TOTAL bottoms. Being a bottom means you are basically competing for the 15% of men who are tops. Saying you are versatile also opens up more possibilities for at least doing oral or maybe manipulating the other guy into reluctantly topping you. Saying that you are a bottom is a sure fire way of NEVER having sex again unless you are either A. Super SUPER lucky or B. Don't have any standards and are willing to bottom for any top no matter how old/ugly/diseased/drugged-out they are. If I were to reconfigure the statistics using honest responses, I would bet that 80% are TOTAL bottoms, 10% are tops and only 10% are legitimately versatile. Just from my personal (as well as many others) experience . . . nearly every “versatile” guy has only EVER wanted to bottom"
2. " If I could steal an answer, I'd say “Yes, most gay men are either top or bottom, or versatile.” Thank you Ruthann Adamsky, that was a great answer! Now let me take a swing at it, from my experiences.
For seven years, I have worked in an industry (gay bathhouse) where I see many gay men, most of whom are looking for some sort of sexual encounters. I am not an expert on human behavior, and I only interact with a very small sampling of gay men in the world, but I would still venture to say that I encounter THOUSANDS of these men each year. I seriously doubt there is anyone on Quora who is more of a real-life expert on the subject than me. While I do not personally have sex with all these men, I'm very aware of what many of their individual tastes and desires are like. The majority seem to prefer to bottom. This also holds true in my personal encounters, with men who do not visit my workplace.
When on hookup aps, I always label myself versatile, though I prefer to top. I like to keep all options open. I am overwhelmingly hit up by bottoms. Most versatile guys who hit me up, almost always want to bottom. Maybe that's because I have a muscular build and a nice penis (not bragging, just potentially relevant info), and as a result my partners just assume the role of being more submissive. However, I do not have a dominant personality, just more of a dominant look. Most bottoms do tend to want to be dominated…you probably would need to talk to someone more versed in psychology to determine why. I am more of an expert on gay male sexual preferences.
I don't tend to believe most studies on the subject, and for whatever reason, there do tend to be quite a few. Most that I have participated in are not anonymous, so I'm not certain the answers received are altogether true. There seems to be a stygma attached to being a bottom (certainly not from me…I LOVE bottoms!), both inside and outside the gay world. Perhaps being a bottom makes you “too gay”? Again, a question for a psychologist.
If I were to put real-life percentages to the labels, I would say accurate numbers would be: 45 percent true bottom; 15 percent vers/bottom; 20 percent true top; and 20 percent vers/top. I do not believe there is such a thing as vers/equal. I don't know if anything in life can be truly equal, outside the world of mathematics. Certainly not anything concerning personal feelings or sensations. You prefer one or the other. It may be a slight preference, but there will certainly be a preference. Those vers/equal people might actually be saying they would settle for either, just so long as they will be having sex. They most definitely would have a true preference though.
Again, I have dealt with a very large number of sexual gay men over the years. I talk to them and receive very honest feedback of what they like and what they are looking for in a sexual partner. In my younger days, I used to set up many group encounters. Finding tops was always the most difficult part. I would end up with twice as many replies from bottoms as from tops. That would be particularly frustrating because, in group encounters, many times bottoms do not like competition for the tops. Having more bottoms than tops can lead to actual fights. As for my one-on-one encounters, I have also had many sexual partners over the years (yes WAY too many, but that's a topic for another question), most of whom are very frank with what they want. By now you've received way too much personal information about me, but it is real life feedback, not some stuffy research study conducted by someone who never even had gay sex. My personal observation is that if you are a top, especially in large urban areas, you would be able to find some satisfaction without much difficulty. Again, just my opinion, but I have done lots and lots of “research” on the subject "
I like both responses, and in my interactions with men whom referred to self's as gay, I agree there are alot more bottoms
Personally the gay men whom I would see identified as 100% tops, and like response 2 above (certainly not from me…I LOVE bottoms!) ,these men loved to " fuck me silly ", and I loved them to do it, they knew what they were doing due to fact they had many bottoms to practice on ! They also, would tell me " Michael you should been born a girl "
No Matter what, The whole Homosexual / Transgender dilemma is very complex
The above 2nd comment " Perhaps being a bottom makes you “too gay”? Again, a question for a psychologist "
is interesting , in what does this imply ?
Only thing that comes to mind, for myself is I can't offer a gay man, bottom,top, straight etc,;
my own cock,
not to play with, to touch, to suck, or to use to penetrate with,
and unless a man was straight or a gay top, they had no interest in me!
"And I was Lucky from 1998-2005, I was able to be selective in the Men I seen, yet still get all the cock I could handle"
Now it gets even more Complex!
Homosexual Types: Transgender, Narcissistic, Pederastic- rodfleming.com
Sexual Inverts who do not transition into HSTS, for whatever reason, remain Transgender Homosexuals. They rarely become heterosexually attracted and will often be analloerotic, that is, abstain from sex altogether, if they are unable to satisfy their female sexuality with appropriate partners. As they grow older, this may be forced on them. Note that a male Transgender Homosexual (that is, a non-transitioned Sexual Invert) will still be transgender sexually, even though she may be gender-conforming socially. That is to say, she will strongly prefer to be penetrated and will seek partners who will do this for her.
Sexual Inversion, HSTS transition and Transgender Homosexuality have been recorded as long as there has been writing. It appears to be a normal variation in human sexuality, caused by pre-natal factors, that may occur in a minority of births of both sexes, in all populations.
Male Transgender Homosexuals may be strongly, innately sexually submissive and can actually be repulsed by the idea of penetrating. They also tend to desire long-term relationships. This may lead to them exposing themselves to abuse to sexual predators who promise faithfulness but whose interest is only in sex. If they form relationships with other Sexual Inverts, these are essentially lesbian in nature.(very much like myself-me)
Narcissistic Homosexuals are NOT Sexual Inverts. Instead their narcissism has established an Erotic Target Location Error which causes them to fixate on the ‘mirror’ of themselves as ‘perfect masculine males’. (I am deeply indebted to the work of Sam Vaknin, the leading authority on Narcissistic Personality Disorder, for some of these insights. I strongly suggest investigating his writing.)
This narcissistic fixation on the mirror of the self causes the ‘clone’ gay phenomenon. In this, everybody looks exactly the same. They are actually striving to do this. Narcissistic gays are obsessed with uniforms, partly because they are militaristic and these homosexuals are anything but shrinking violets, but also because they make everyone look identical.
Because Narcissistic Homosexuals are attracted to themselves as men, they are attracted to masculinity in others. There is always a power relationship in sex and this nowhere more obvious than in liaisons between Narcissistic Homosexuals.
I agree with Rod on supporting the HSTS, yet still mixed feeling about supporting hormone transition, at least til 18, then maybe by then they've lived awhile dressing feminine, have had sex with men in their female role. just my opinion.
Yet I fully understand his view point, I think to, maybe the hormone/surgery options will improve.
Pederasty is the attraction, on the part of older males, to young males. This is generally taken to mean targets between the ages of 11-18, but they could be older if they remain sufficiently neotenous. It is not the same as paedophilia, which is as often a heterosexual paraphilia as a homosexual one and in any cases refers to attraction to children prior to puberty, or, generally, under 11 years old. There does not appear to be a female equivalent to pederasty, but in sex research, one never says never.
Pederasty, again, has been documented for thousands of years and some theorists , eg Bruce Rind, propose that ‘male attraction to boys evolved as an exaptation from male attraction to females’. This evolved ‘to serve the purpose of social bonding, mentorship, and reproduction of the male group’. Rind’s work has not met with much support, probably due to academic hostility to the idea, but, whether or not he is correct about its origins, it is certainly widespread and, in many cultures both in the past and today, institutionalised. This does tend to suggest an innate cause.
On the other hand, Pederastic homosexuals, individually, seem to be made. While some may be Sexual Inverts, this appears to be unusual; Pederastic homosexuals are attracted to boys and want to penetrate them, while male Sexual Inverts are attracted to men and want to be penetrated. There is little common ground.
I have always seen myself as a modern day → eromenos
My dilemma while reading and for years as been, the the following about Greek Pederasty,
→ once I took the role as eromenos / passive role at age 13 and was being penetrated by my two friends, I feel they literally, nearly 100% femininized / emasculated me, and even then I knew I wanted to be, wanted no other role, and my attempt to live up to societal standards as a heterosexual man, failed as in my heart I only want the Female role.
(I see myself Transsexual homosexual/psychosexually female, due to fact of role, and if GRS surgery was rational would have surgery to remove my penis)
Pederasty in ancient Greece was a socially acknowledged romantic relationship between an adult male (the erastes) and a younger male (the eromenos) usually in his teens
Both art and other literary references show that the erômenos was at least a teen, with modern age estimates ranging from 13 to 20,
Dover insisted that the active role of the erastês and the passivity of the erômenos is a distinction "of the highest importance"
The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identifier as modern Western societies have done. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated. This active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth
I've always felt this type hierarchy should be how;
homosexual relationships need be structured, the erastês always being the
top male, the erômenos once fully femininized always the female roled male, and for myself ,start dressing feminine like to display that I am the Feminine passive partner → As Dover states above " of the highest importance ,roles be defined "
( and if GRS surgery were more advanced, least to my liking , I would get my penis replaced with female like Vulva )
the One thing I have always greatly desired → not to have a penis
I want to project to a man, I am 100% fully female sexually roled
Thus when I undress for a Man, he clearly knows my Role.
" I have a no penis "
I do believe, like many scholars,
that Greeks most likely became one of the most advanced societies in human history,
What happened, was it the introducing of the " Whole New ideology of Christianity ", which shattered, dissolved , eradicated all homosexuality ? Thus like any action, there is a equal and opposite reaction, similar to removing a
keystone species from nature , like the wolf from yellowstone park, man caused total chaos
You can't just go forcing change on people, without great Reactions !
It's quite clear to myself, due to the way we have handled the the dilemma / condition of homosexuality, we ultimately have caused
complete chaos, as it is deeply engrained in the " Human experience ". I don't have complete answer solution etc. but I do know, the very way the whole Homosexual element of human nature has been so poorly handled, as well as so many other human conditions,
we will be Dam Lucky to Survive much longer, if we keep headed in the direction we currently are.
This MGTOW thing is interesting ; are they going to be the next " New Gay men " ?