In a Large part, -just dawned - on me, and why is that ?
"As men, being unable to bear discreetly a satiety of these things, get restive like cattle, and become stiff-necked, and discard the laws of nature, pursuing a great and intemperate indulgence of gluttony, and drinking, and unlawful connections; for not only did they go mad after other women, and defile the marriage bed of others, but also those who were men lusted after one another, doing unseemly things, and not regarding or respecting their common nature, and though eager for children, they were convicted by having only an abortive offspring; but the conviction produced no advantage, since they were overcome by violent desire; and so by degrees, the men became accustomed to be treated like women, and in this way engendered among themselves the disease of females, and intolerable evil; for they not only, as to effeminacy and delicacy, became like women in their persons, but they also made their souls most ignoble, corrupting in this way the whole race of men, as far as depended on them" (133-35; ET Jonge 422-23) - Wikipedia (Sodomy)
Despite the formal disapproval of religious authority, gender segregation in Muslim societies and the strong emphasis on virility leads adolescents and unmarried young men to seek alternative sexual outlets to women, especially with males younger than themselves. Not all sodomy is homosexual, but for many young men heterosexual sodomy is considered better than vaginal penetration, and female prostitutes report the demand for anal penetration from their male clients.
Lucretius treats male desire, female sexual pleasure, heredity, and infertility as aspects of sexual physiology. In the Epicurean view, sexuality arises from impersonal physical causes without divine or supernatural influence. The onset of physical maturity generates semen, and wet dreams occur as the sexual instinct develops. Sense perception, specifically the sight of a beautiful body, provokes the movement of semen into the genitals and toward the object of desire. The engorgement of the genitals creates an urge to ejaculate, coupled with the anticipation of pleasure. The body's response to physical attractiveness is automatic, and neither the character of the person desired nor one's own choice is a factor. With a combination of scientific detachment and ironic humor, Lucretius treats the human sex drive as muta cupido, "dumb desire", comparing the physiological response of ejaculation to the blood spurting from a wound. Love (amor) is merely an elaborate cultural posturing that obscures a glandular condition; love taints sexual pleasure just as life is tainted by the fear of death. Lucretius is writing primarily for a male audience, and assumes that love is a male passion, directed at either boys or women. Male desire is viewed as pathological, frustrating, and violent. - Sexuality in ancient Rome / wikipedia
Lucretius' purpose is to correct ignorance and to give the knowledge necessary for managing one's sex life rationally. He distinguishes between pleasure and conception as goals of copulation; both are legitimate, but require different approaches. He recommends casual sex as a way of releasing sexual tension without becoming obsessed with a single object of desire; a "streetwalking Venus"—a common prostitute—should be used as a surrogate. Sex without passionate attachment produces a superior form of pleasure free of uncertainty, frenzy, and mental disturbance. Lucretius calls this form of sexual pleasure venus, in contrast to amor, passionate love. The best sex is that of happy animals, or of gods. Lucretius combines an Epicurean wariness of sex as a threat to peace of mind with the Roman cultural value placed on sexuality as an aspect of marriage and family life, pictured as an Epicurean man in a tranquil and friendly marriage with a good but homely woman, beauty being a disquieting prompt to excessive desire. Lucretius reacts against the Roman tendency to display sex ostentatiously, as in erotic art, and rejects the aggressive, "Priapic" model of sexuality spurred by visual stimulus.
If nothing else reading the above ↑ , one could say this a " sex education class "
In early Stoicism among the Greeks, sex was regarded as a good, if enjoyed between people who maintained the principles of respect and friendship; in the ideal society, sex should be enjoyed freely, without bonds of marriage that treated the partner as property. Some Greek Stoics privileged same-sex relations between a man and a younger male partner (see "Pederasty in ancient Greece"). However, stoics in the Roman Imperial era departed from the view of human beings as "communally sexual animals" and emphasized sex within marriage, which as an institution helped sustain social order. Although they distrusted strong passions, including sexual desire, sexual vitality was necessary for procreation.
I think it is important to try understand what " boy " was in ancient Greece (In Ancient Greek kouros means "youth, boy, especially of noble rank"
Greeks at time very often sculpted in life-size, thus this youth very well could be beyond puberty
a beautiful creature without pressing needs of his own. He is aware of his attractiveness, but self-absorbed in his relationship with those who desire him. He will smile sweetly at the admiring lover; he will show appreciation for the other's friendship, advice, and assistance. He will allow the lover to greet him by touching, affectionately, his genitals and his face, while he looks, himself, demurely at the ground. … The inner experience of an erômenos would be characterized, we may imagine, by a feeling of proud self-sufficiency. Though the object of importunate solicitation, he is himself not in need of anything beyond himself. He is unwilling to let himself be explored by the other's needy curiosity, and he has, himself, little curiosity about the other. He is something like a god, or the statue of a god.
Socrates' love of Alcibiades, which was more than reciprocated, is held as an example of chaste pederasty.. Socrates remarks in the dialogue Phaedrus that sexual pederasty is driven by the appetital part of the soul, but can be balanced by self-control and reason. He likens wanton lust for a boy to allowing a disobedient horse to control a chariot, but remarks that sexual desire for a boy if combined with a love for their other qualities is acceptable.
[Latin pathicus, submitting to sexual penetration, from Greek pathikos,
Those scholars who prefer the historical approach are convinced that pederasty originates in Dorian initiation rites. The Dorians were the last tribe to migrate to Greece, and they are usually described as real he-men with a very masculine culture. According to the proponents of this theory, pederasty came to being on the Dorian island Crete, where grown-up men used to kidnap (consenting) adolescents. It is assumed that this practice spread from Crete to the Greek mainland. In the soldiers' city Sparta, it was not uncommon when a warrior took care of a younger recruit and stood next to him on the battlefield, where the two bravely protected each other. Especially in aristocratic circles, pederasty is believed to have been common.
There are, indeed, a great many pictures on vases that show how an older lover, the erastes, courts a boy, the eromenos. They appear not to be of the same age: the erastes has a beard and plays an active role, whereas the adolescent has no beard and remains passive. He will never take an initiative, looks shy, and is never shown as excited. It is assumed by many modern scholars that as soon as the adolescent had a beard, the love affair had to be finished. He had to find an eromenos of his own.
My question here is " If the male - eromenos.- took the passive role ,as I did as a youth, and very much desired the passive role (submitting to sexual penetration), not wishing to be in male role, did many young males not remain in the passive role for a life time, as I have ? -me ↓
It was certainly shameful when a man with a beard remained the passive partner (pathikos) and it was even worse when a man allowed himself to be penetrated by another grown-up man. The Greeks even had a pejorative expression for these people, whom were called kinaidoi. They were the targets of ridicule by the other citizens, especially comedy writers. For example, Aristophanes (c.445-c.380) shows them dressed like women, with a bra, a wig and a gown, and calls them euryprôktoi, "wide arses". In this scholarly reconstruction of ancient sexual behavior, the older lover is presented as some sort of substitute father: he is there to help his beloved one on his way to manhood and maturity, and to initiate him in the customs of grown-up people. He showed his affection with little presents, like animals (a hare or cock), but also pieces of meat, a disk, a bottle of oil, a garland, a toy, or money. This type of love affair was, according to this modern theory, based upon (sexual) reciprocity.
The story of Harmodius and Aristogeiton, and its treatment by later Greek writers, is illustrative of attitudes to pederasty in ancient Greece. Both Thucydides and Herodotus describe the two as lovers, their love affair was styled as moderate (sophron) and legitimate (dikaios). Further confirming the status of the two as paragons of pederastic ethics, a domain forbidden to slaves, a law was passed prohibiting slaves from being named after the two heroes.
The story continued to be cited as an admirable example of heroism and devotion for many years. In 346 BC, for example, the politician Timarchus was prosecuted (for political reasons) on the grounds that he had prostituted himself as a youth. The orator who defended him, Demosthenes, cited Harmodius and Aristogeiton, as well as Achilles and Patroclus, as examples of the beneficial effects of same-sex relationships. Aeschines offers them as an example of dikaios erōs, "just love", and as proof of the boons such love brings the lovers – who were both improved by love beyond all praise – as well as to the city.
Were Kinaidoi Actually Women? -rlesser.sites.gettysburg.edu
With all the accusations of Timarchus being a woman and the descriptions of kinaidoi being the opposite of the ideal man, we can consider the possibility of kinaidoi, or at least some of them, being evidence of trans people in Ancient Greek society. In Constraints of Desire, Winkler describes the differences between hoplites and kinaidoi, “While the hoplite warrior is the ideal self to which every well-to-do citizen looks, the kinaidos, mentioned only with laughter or indignation, is the unreal, but dreaded, anti-type of masculinity behind every man’s back,” (Winkler, 46). This tells me two things: first of all, kinaidoi are the opposite of the ideal man, which could translate to being women, and secondly, they were ridiculed, which is something we see people throughout history doing, and even today trans people are ridiculed and beat down by much of society. We have discussed that the Ancient Greeks may not have had a concept of sexuality like we do today, but they do have a construct of women and men that was likely based off of the genitals that people had. These ideas provide the same base as today’s society does, allowing people who don’t find those assigned roles fitting to attempt to break free of them. If this was the case for some kinaidoi, then I believe there would be little difference between them and trans women today, meaning those kinaidoi really were the trans women of Ancient Greece.
Κίναιδος/cinaedus is a term used both in Greek and Latin sources for a figure most commonly noted for his effeminate gender display and sexual degeneracy whether expressed through a willingness to be anally penetrated or as a more general insatiability - The Wages of Effeminacy?: Kinaidoi in Greek Documents from Egypt
So in Essense , I would of been known as a -kinaidoi - at that time in Greece,
as my sexuality is very much centered on being anally penetrated and recieving a man's
Semen up into me
The Sleep of Reason brings together an international group of philosophers, philologists, literary critics, and historians to consider two questions normally kept separate: how is erotic experience understood in classical texts of various kinds, and what ethical judgments and philosophical arguments are made about sex? From same-sex desire to conjugal love, and from Plato and Aristotle to the Roman Stoic Musonius Rufus, the contributors demonstrate the complexity and diversity of classical sexuality. They also show that the ethics of eros, in both Greece and Rome, shared a number of commonalities: a focus not only on self-mastery, but also on reciprocity; a concern among men not just for penetration and display of their power, but also for being gentle and kind, and for being loved for themselves; and that women and even younger men felt not only gratitude and acceptance, but also joy and sexual desire.
I know I've all was felt gratitude and acceptance, but also joy and sexual desire.↑ when a man has allowed me to perform Fellatio
on him or his as anally penetrated me ,especially if he has delivered his semen into me.
“In ancient Greece, there was not a word to describe homosexual practices: they were simply part of aphrodisia, love, which included men and women alike.” To put it simply, some Greek men didn’t discriminate when it came to sex - to them any sexual activity was just “sexuality.” Not homosexuality or heterosexuality. They framed it as more on the terms of “giving” and “receiving”. Unless you were a woman, however, it was looked down upon to enjoy receiving. Interestingly, those who enjoyed “receiving” were stigmatized within the Athenian society and were kinaidoi (men who allowed other men to penetrate them). This was a degrading word, suggesting ancient Athens, the so-called open-minded Greek city-state of antiquity, wasn’t gay-friendly at all.
One can easily see how
-hypocrisy- was just as common in ancient Greece as it is now
" Which I always thought to be a enemy of evolution "
Jung went on:
Margaret Clap (died c. 1726), better known as Mother Clap, ran a coffee house from 1724 to 1726 in Holborn, Middlesex, a short distance from the City of London. Notable for running a molly house, an inn or tavern primarily frequented by homosexual men, she was also heavily involved in the ensuing legal battles after her premises were raided and shut down. While not much is known about her life, she was an important part of the gay subculture of early 18th-century England. At the time sodomy in England was a crime under the Buggery Act 1533, punishable by a fine, imprisonment, or the death penalty. Despite this, particularly in larger cities, private homosexual activity took place. To service these actions there existed locations where men from all classes could find partners or just socialize, called molly houses, "molly" being slang for a gay man at the time. One of the most famous of these was Clap's molly house. - wikipedia
Clap, Margaret (fl. 1720s)- archive.org
Very little is known about Margaret Clap's life, except for the period in which she operated one of the more popular "molly houses" in London. It was raided and closed down in 1726. Her house provided mollies, a term for gay men at the time, a place to meet each other, create community, and pursue sexual relationships with each other.
Even though Rictor Norton characterizes Clap somewhat flippantly as the "first 'fag hag' to be documented in British history," his reference conveys a certain truth. She seems to have enjoyed the company of the mollies who frequented her house and tried to protect them when they came before the court on charges.
Although it is likely that some figures closely associated with Clap's house were prostitutes, like Thomas Newton and Ned Courtney, Norton argues that it is unlikely that Clap ran her house as a brothel. She seems to have earned her income from her tenants, the alcohol she sold, and the occasional gift from her guests. (kinda similar to my idea of Indigo club except I'd be the "molly" )
Molly Houses - archive.org
The term molly originally referred to a female prostitute, but in London in the early eighteenth century groups of men, noted for their effeminacy and sexual interest in each other, began to call themselves mollies and gather in semi-private venues called molly houses.
In addition to a handful of public cruising places in London, molly houses, which were mostly taverns or private rooms, served as important meeting places for men sexually interested in each other. These venues and the men who frequented them comprised one of the first modern homosexual subcultures. Molly houses provided mollies a space in which to act on homosexual desires and develop a sense of community.
Margaret Clap owned and ran the most notorious of these houses, which was located in Field Lane in Holborn. Sunday evenings were often its busiest night, when sometimes close to fifty customers filled her rooms. Men there often dressed in women's clothing, took on female personae, and affected effeminate mannerisms and speech
" I sure there was a lot of saying " treat me like a Lady " going on. ♥
" Until Nature, reality is Understood by facing it, it can never be Changed or Evolved "
I think for myself ; " Once one as Taken the Role as a Molly, or as kinaidoi, as a " berdache" etc, it is stuck ", or might say;
Once I had a " Real Man " stick his Manhood up inside me then fill me with his seed, I knew I wanted to be like a " Lady "
What do "Molly" house and "Speakeasies " have in common ?
1.They where the outcome of a Suppression of freedom
2. A " Suppression " which lead to a great increase in Crime and Suffering
excerpt from ↑
"They were closest in role to someone like the North American berdache. But whereas it was legitimate for the Native American berdache to be penetrated by the men and boys from the majority, in the modern system the molly was supposed to be strictly avoided by the men and boys from the majority. The molly did desire such men, sometimes as their only object, but the men who yielded were concerned to hide this very carefully since any contact with a molly could be used to put them into that despised category. Mollies also had sex (and perhaps mainly) with each other, whereas the berdaches strictly avoided each other."